In the Company of Travelers – Season 2, Episode 2 Transcript
Guest: Hyun Kim. Hosts: Hannes Wiesmann and Jo Johnson
Hannes Wiesmann:
Welcome dear listeners to In The Company of Travellers, a podcast of the Wycliffe Global Alliance. I am Hannes Wiesmann and with me as always is Jo Johnson. Welcome, Jo.
Jo Johnson:
Thanks Hannes. Good to be with you. Today we continue season two of this podcast which was created to address the theme of organisational Christlikeness. There is a wealth of material regarding personal Christlikeness, but we’ve found much less when it comes to organisations.
Hannes:
Last season, we and our guests took a rather broad look at this subject. For this season, we are exploring the topic of discernment.
Jo:
Yeah, it’s one of those things most often mentioned by leaders when others ask how they can pray for them. Wisdom and discernment are a constant need.
Hannes:
Recently, we enjoyed a conversation with our friend Hyun Kim. Kim is the director of GBT or Global Bible Translators of South Korea. He is a person of humble wisdom and discernment. Let’s drop into our conversation now.
Now Kim, I know you as a humble and wise leader. I’ve seen you lead with wisdom and grace even in challenging circumstances. I imagine you’ve learned quite a bit about discernment along the way. So to start us off, could you talk about a situation from your life that can be personal or professional where discernment played an important role?
Hyun Kim:
As a leader of an organization, we are always sitting at the position of making final decisions. There’s quite heavy responsibility and sometimes big burden for the leaders, especially for the Christian organization because this business is not our own business. But it’s his business, God’s business. So, you know, to discern what is God’s will and what really he wants through us is very important to us rather than to achieve our goal. So, yeah, in this sense, the discernment for the leadership is very important and at the moment, at the same time, It’s very challenging. I can say that every day I face this kind of the smaller or bigger issue. We really need the kind of wisdom and discernment when we make decisions.
Hannes:
You started saying you as a leader, you need so often to make the final decision.
Kim :
Right. Right.
Hannes:
What helps you to carry this responsibility?
Kim:
Well, officially, I know that I’m the last person to say the final answer to any question from my staff. And I need to give some kind of direction to my staff and to my organization. But sometimes, especially in the early days of my leadership of this organization, that was kind of too big for me. It was too big a burden for me to carry that kind of responsibility. So as the time goes on, one thing that I learned is that I need to bring these burdens to the Lord, because Jesus invites us to share this responsibility with him. And also I try to, as much as I share my burden with my colleagues. So, on one hand, I really want to listen to God, and also, on the other hand, I really want to listen to my colleagues and brother and sisters, because I believe that Godis speaking through my brothers and sisters, working with me, not by myself. So when we had, I had that kind of process or conversation. I feel very much relieved and then I feel like that there is a peace and unity also in our community when we make that kind of process of discernment as a community.
Hannes:
Yeah, I wonder if you have an example where you processed this situation in this way with your colleagues, both listening to your colleagues and to God in the same process. As you can share, I realize maybe there is certainly stuff that you cannot share publicly, but maybe you have an example.
Kim:
Well, every organization goes through the difficult seasons and also the good seasons. Like my organization, we have been through very difficult, challenging days in the past few years, especially when I stepped into my role as a director. There was a big disagreement among our members about the direction of our organization. So those were very challenging times for our organization, especially for the director, for me. One thing that I started was to think about how God will look into my organization, how he feels about our situation. And I felt a kind of heart-breaking kind of emotion. So my first desire when I started my role as a director was not to do some very wonderful thing, but to restore my community. I mean, my organization as one body. But I didn’t know idea where I should start and how I can do and what can I do. So I just started bringing this, my big burden to the Lord and just talked to him and asked him his wisdom and his mercy upon our community. That’s how I started. And then as I went to the Lord, he just encouraged me every time and he brought the right people, at the right timing, so that I can think about certain topics with some specific members. And that’s how the Lord helped us to restore our community step by step. I cannot share every detailed step, but I can say it was his grace and mercy, rather than a human’s app or tool, humans’ wisdom or collective wisdom…
Hannes:
You know, it impresses me as I listen to you, how little you were interested in promoting yourself, making a name out of yourself, doing a big thing as a new leader, but it was about finding God’s purpose and way forward.
Kim:
Yeah. So I can say that the discipline is not kind of a technical skill for making good decisions. This is not at all, I believe, but it totally depends on how we keep our close relationship or intimacy with our Lord. And then as I closely work with him, my desire is getting bigger and bigger to be more closely like him and to do what he wants to do through me or my organization. So I can say that I simply followed what God put in my mind to do for my community, whether it is a smaller thing or a bigger thing. So I simply follow him and then ask him whether it is your will or not. And then if I feel like a peace in my heart, I just simply follow and move one step forward and together actually with my stafs. So I can say that it was kind of a journey, walking together with our Lord and then our staff, who the Lord entrusts to me, to work together.
Jo:
The thing that struck me about the story you’ve just told is that you were not in a hurry, that you were taking things one step at a time, that you were pausing to listen to the Lord. Maybe it’s just in my culture where we need to rush about all the time, but how did you slow things down so that you went at God’s pace and not at your own pace to get things fixed? ‘Cause you said there were some issues. I would have been in a hurry to make it sorted out.
Kim:
Well, I’m not good in that area. I’m still learning how to wait for his timing and how I can make space so that God can work through my life and also through our community. So one thing that I remember always in my mind, it is not important to accomplish my goal or my kind of certain success. It is all about his glory and his will to be done. So even though I make a very big and wonderful future plan, it (might not be) God’s plan at all. But I can imagine some good things, but sometimes, how can I say? Yeah, so it is still challenging to me whether it is my personal or selfish goal to be shown up, sometimes as a leader, or it this truly God’s will and his desire in my life or in my organization?
So waiting for his timing is quite challenging. Sometimes I feel like I’m kind of in pressure that, “Oh, I need to do something, something, to do better or to overcome this kind of challenge.” Or sometimes God, Lord is just teaching me, “Kim, just quiet and be still. It is time that I will work.” And then I just, rather than I just keep away from that issue or hide from that issue, but just bring that issue to the Lord and then to talk to him and let him work in his way in his timing. And looking back at my ways and my journey, his wisdom and his ways are much more over my imagination and my way or my plan. …
Jo:
So there’s almost a partnership between trusting and discerning.
Kim:
Right. Yeah.
Hannes:
It is a discernment process to find the right speed or pace. I’m assuming you have your own internal dialogue that tells you go quicker and another voice says no, go slower, wait on the Lord. But I’m also assuming you have outside voices, your colleagues or the board. I wonder how the outside voices help you in this, or how they make it more challenging? How have you experienced that?
Kim:
I think that is another part of my challenge at the moment. Because as an organization, the board or our members, they set certain kinds of deadline for some, you know, that’s a specific date to make a decision or accomplish certain goals. So I don’t know exactly, frankly speaking, I don’t know which one is the best way. I try to meet certain deadlines to make decisions if there is a kind of, you know, request from outside. But if not, I just still wait and wait until I have kind of an inner conviction, confidence that this is a time that I put it into action, something like that.
So yeah, it is very challenging because in our hearts there are different voices, sometimes the voice from my selfish ego or sometimes the voice from our enemies, sometimes truly from God. So it’s very challenging every time to distinguish whether it is God speaking or other kind of noise. But one thing that I know, that if I walk closely with God, the noise is smaller and smaller. And I can clearly listen and hear God’s voice, whether it is through the Word of God or in the way about my prayer to him. So God, he speaks all the time if I talk to him.
Hannes:
I learned something new about leadership. It seems to me that giving leadership in an organization, that an important part of it is pacing organizations with the right speed. And you have those pressures who tell you, “Go quicker, we need a decision.” But you as a leader, you need to say, “No, it’s not … the moment hasn’t arrived yet. We need to wait.”
Kim:
Yeah, so I think one of the areas that as a leader, … setting the speed of decision making as an organization, (by) the leadership is very important. … But I think sometimes it’s cultural. In my culture, sometimes in secular settings, some leaders, they make a very quick decision. And then the staffs feel very comfortable. If the leadership postponed the decision for some reasons, probably the staff would feel very uncomfortable. And then also, every individual has a different character. So even for example, in my organization, I’m working as a director and I have an associate director and I have six team leaders. The six team leaders, they have different character and personality. Some staff are very comfortable if there is no clear direction. But if there is a team leader, they feel uncomfortable if they have to wait and wait. So it is sometimes challenging, and so we need to make sure when the decision should be made.
Hannes:
It probably can actually be both. In some cases, you need to slow down. In other cases or in another organization also, maybe you need to speed things up and say, “Hey, we can actually make a decision.” That’s also part of the discernment process.
Kim:
Yeah, but not only the timing, the speed of the making decision, but I value the process of the making decision as more important. How to get to the decision, final decision. So I really value the process, the procedure of the making decisions. And then as I apply this kind of process of making decisions, it should be a kind of process of discerning God’s will to our organizations. I’m not expert, but I’m trying to do as a leader of our leadership team.
Hannes:
You seem to be an expert in listening to God, so I don’t know what you’re talking about. (laughs)
Kim:
It is kind of practicing making God’s discernment, but I had a kind of intention, And then I continue to talk to him, God, as I lead my team.
Jo:
I was very struck by you saying that the closer you are walking with God, the easier it was to make leadership decisions. Do you have any tips to help us with that? Because there’s this constant tension for many of us in leadership between all this work that needs to get done and having a close walk with God and spending time in prayer. I just wonder how you manage that tension between lots of work to do, but also stilling your heart and hearing from God.
Kim:
Well, I don’t think I have any specific strengths in that area, but I’m trying to go through that direction. But I can say that I have two things in mind all the time when I lead my team. One thing is that not only myself, but lead our staff to really listen to God. So yeah, and I really emphasize that individually. And also when we come together as a group, we try to listen to others also. And then while we are listening to others, we can listen to God, the God who speaks through our brothers and sisters. Not only in an official meeting setting, but in my daily office work, I always try to do listen carefully to my staff. Not only do I value them, I really love them, but also I really want to listen to what God is talking to me through my colleagues, through what the person is saying to me directly or some kind of activities or small things that he or the person is showing to me. Because I’m not good at recognizing the smaller things. If not, so many business and works are overwhelming me. So if I don’t really have kind of intention, (I can) simply lose what God is talking to me.
Hannes:
I was about to ask you how do you listen well? You said, I love my staff and I listen to my staff. So the connection between loving your staff and listening to your staff probably is a very potent basis to discern together as a group.
Kim:
Yeah, well, I don’t know whether it is directly related with this kind of topic, but last year we had a very big event. We celebrated our 40th anniversary as an organization. We had a kind of a big ceremony event and it happened in November. And I think it was sometime last year as a whole, our staff, about 30 people, were together in my home office. We sat together and we shared the big plan about our 40th anniversary. And the first thing that I shared with my staff was that I don’t want to see our 40th anniversary. And the first thing I shared with my staff was that, I don’t want to see our 40th anniversary running perfectly. And many people will say, , Oh, GBT is very excellent at doing this kind a big event. I don’t want to listen to that kind of response after that anniversary event. But I really wanted to see that each one of us experienced God in the process of our preparing this event. And by experiencing God in the process, in the end of this event, I wanted to listen from each of you that through this event, I really experienced God more and came to know about him more and then I want to love him more. So I really wanted to take that kind of confession from our staff. And that was my prayer for my staff and for this anniversary. Our 40th anniversary was very successful, I can say that. But we are not proud of that, not because of the way we made it. After that, we had … a group looking back at the very heavy preparation work to make this event successful, and every step they shared about what they experienced during their preparation stages. I was really encouraged to listen from each one of them through that kind of time they were able to experience God more, and now they love God more, and then to be like him. It made me so happy, you know, even myself. So whatever we do for him, for God, I think it leads us, we love him more and more, we have still desire to work more closely with him. That would be our ultimate success we can experience in this world. That is the final destination of our spiritual life. And then in that sense, our discernment should be aligned with that, you know? Our purpose, our life, or ministry in the world. Why do we need to make more wise decisions? Because we want to give all the glory to him. Because we are to love him more and because we are to do what he really wants through us and through our organization.
Jo:
What a thought that Kim ended with there, that the ultimate purpose of discernment is for us to know and love God more.
Hannes:
Yes, like with our previous episode with Paul Kimbi. This seems so obvious. You first think, does it even have to be mentioned? But the way Kim not only talks about it, but actually brings it to the way he leads GBT is so inspiring.
Jo:
And challenging too. It’s one thing to confess that loving and knowing God is most important. It’s quite another to bring that to the workplace, as Kim does.
Hannes:
Our thanks again to Hyun Kim for such an insightful conversation. Please join us again next time as continue these conversations about discernment and organizational Christlikeness. And remember, you can continue this conversation by emailing us at info@wickliff.net.
Announcer:
In the Company of Travelers is a podcast of the Wycliffe Global Alliance. If you have questions or comments we would love to hear from you. Please email us at info@wycliffe.net. And, you can find much more about the Alliance including news, reflection, partnership opportunities and much more at wycliffe.net.