In the Company of Travellers – Season 2, Episode 1 Transcript

Announcer:

Welcome to season two of In the Company of Travelers, a podcast of the Wycliffe Global Alliance. Here is your co-host, Jo Johnson.

Jo Johnson:

I’m delighted to welcome to the podcast today two men whom I have the privilege of calling friends as well as colleagues. Paul Kimbi, who serves on the Alliance leadership team as Consultant for Bible Translation Programmes, and Paul is based in Cameroon. And of course, welcome to Hannes Wiesmann, who serves on the Alliance leadership team as Assistant to the Executive Director. He’s calling in from Switzerland. I’m Jo Johnson, the Alliance’s Prayer Advocacy Coordinator, and I’m joining from the UK. In this second season of our podcast, we’re exploring the theme of discernment. And as we’ve prepared for these conversations, I’ve been struck by how we need to use discernment very often in little ways as well as in big decisions. Paul, you’re someone who I see being a thoughtful and humble follower of Jesus Christ with the ability of bringing understanding in complex situations. So I’m really excited to have this conversation with you. I believe that you’ll shed light on things that we’ve not thought about before. To start us off, could you share a story from your own life, either personal or professional, where discernment played an important role.

Paul Kimbi:

Thank you very much, Jo. It’s my privilege to share with you this morning on this very important topic, discernment. Because discernment is a daily life thing. I think when we get up in the morning, we begin with discernment. How is the day going to look like? How is the weather going to be like? Should I go out or should I not go out? So all along our lives, I think we are call upon to discern, to make decisions because I consider discernment as decision making under certain circumstances. And as you’ve asked the question, I am thinking what story should I share with the multiple, multiple occasions I have had to discern on many things. One that is forcefully coming to my mind is the story of how I came to be here. How did I become a translator? How did I choose this as a career? What led me into this? And as a matter of fact, Jo, I must say I started off as a translator. I volunteered as a translator to translate a New Testament into my own mother tongue. At that point, I had not hoped that I was going to get along with translation as a career. It was in the course of translating that I saw that God was calling me into the ministry of translation. I had multiple occasions where from both rebukes, reproaches, from both the internal voice, intuition, and the sense that God is calling me into this, led me into this.

One little story. At one point during our translation team, I had hoped to leave the translation next and then get along with some other professional team. And as I thought about that, and as I shared with one of the team members, he gave me a sharp rebuke, a sharp reproach. And when I thought about it, I thought, wait a minute, why is he reproaching me? Then I prayed about it, and I felt some peace, and I felt some sense of, oh God, leading me to say, why don’t you stay here? Again, when I was doing that, I was also teaching Sunday school class in my church. And I saw the multiple encouraging testimonies that women– because I was teaching in the mother tongue, and I used the translated drafts. That was my way of testing the drafts, but also teaching. And I saw the multiple women coming with very encouraging testimonies, some of them very engaging in what we are doing. And I thought, God is saying something.

One of those testimonies is the story of a woman in her 70s who has two children, two of her sons are pastors. All of them had tried to lead their mother to Christ. And she never yielded in, she never gave in. And I remember that that blessed day we were having a discussion from Luke chapter 17, the story of the lepers. And I saw how it touched her. And then she came to me after that and shared her testimony and said, “I think I’m considering this. My sons have talked to me about this. And I think the story shared about leprosy and the comparison that we all have spiritual leprosy has touched me in a special way. So at that point I sat back and I said, “If God can lead me to a woman like this to regain her spiritual health from what she considers as spiritual leprosy, where else am I going?” So that was the conviction point and that was the point that I said, “OK, I think God is leading me into this. So I think it was a reproach, which is a counsel, which to me was a counsel. It was prayer and it was a testimony like this that I thought this is what God wants.

Jo:

No, that’s great. Thank you so much for sharing that. So when you started volunteering as a translator, did you have any intention of making it your career or was this just something you were doing as an extra thing?

Paul:

Absolutely not. I never thought I was going to be into this for more than three years. I had just left the university. I came back to the village and then I engaged in this as a way of trying to do translation while I considered what I was going to do with my life. And it was in the course of this translation and with the story that I just shared to you, among many other stories, that brought me in full swing. And since then I’ve never left.

Hannes Wiesmann:

Paul, I’m particularly fascinated that a reproach was one element along the way. I mean, prayer and testimony probably figure in other people’s story, but that reproach played a crucial role. Could you explore that a little bit? What helped you to receive that reproach as a, basically as a gift, as a signpost?

Paul:

Hannes, that’s the beauty of language. Certain things come across as strong communications in the way they are presented. The person could have told me, Have you considered your decision? The person could have told me, I don’t think that’s the right thing for you to do. And I think I’ve heard you, Hannes, sometimes say that statements or answers are overrated. I’ve heard you say, when you say something in the form of a question, there is a kind of impact that it produces, more than just saying it as a statement. That’s the way– when the person said to me, Do you know what you have done? Are you considering what you are doing? In a very sharp, annoyed, or angry tone, and I sat down and I said, “Oh, this gentleman does not talk in this way.” For him to say this means that he is saying it with a lot of conviction and this is unusual. So is there something unusual about what I am doing?

So that night, as I laid on the bed, I replayed the scene and it was because of that … that made me again to pray. And when I prayed and considered not living, I found some peace in my heart. I found some joy in my heart. And I said, God is leading me into this.

Hannes:

I’m sure what also contributed is a basic humility that I know you have. And apparently you had at that time already. You were teachable. You were receptive to such a challenge.

Paul:

That’s right. That’s right. And that’s something we should observe in our lives to find out what is God saying in between the lines of what we are hearing? Am I just doing my own things or God is saying something? And have I considered other options? I may hold to my opinion and think that my opinion is really of high value, but it requires me … that shouldn’t stop me from considering what in my considerations is a lower opinion.

And in a more comic sense, I do that all of the time with my wife. Many of the times in an argument with my wife or in a discussion with my wife, I feel like I have that reasoning that is more informed. Sometimes I just brush aside her ideas and then I sit back sometimes and then they play back to me. And when I think about that, I see sometimes that she was more right than I am. And that has caused me to always listen to her even when I think I’ve got the answers. It makes me to always listen slowly and gently, with all humility like you’ve put it, knowing that I can be wrong.

Jo:

I personally find that really challenging because I recognise that in a discernment situation I need to put my own preferences to one side and listen to what God is saying, but you’re actually challenging me to always put my preferences on one side and to listen well to those around me as well.

Paul:

That’s right. And the thing that is very subtle about discernment, it’s sometimes obvious when we sit down to say, OK, let’s discern on a particular topic. But in your daily life, the thing that is subtle about discernment is that you are making decisions and discerning sometimes without actually considering that you are in a discernment process. So you are just saying, I’m making this decision, I’m making this decision. And all of the reasoning is going on in your mind, all the discussions are going on in your mind, because it is not so formal, you don’t often realize that you are in a discernment process. And it calls for us to be a little slower, slower processors than we often are. Even in reading our Bible, sometimes, I think it calls for us to read the Bible a little more slowly, gently reading the Bible and going slower than faster because it is in the course of that that ideas shoot up and from those ideas we pick what we want to pick.

Hannes:

I really like this idea Paul. The same skills and codes that you use for discernment process actually should inform just our everyday life and interactions with people. You talked about reading between the lines, I think was the expression you used, what God says between the lines. And I would suggest you can do that best with God if you practice it with people, just conversations. Listen well, be willing to put aside your own ideas. So it’s not a compartmentalised thing, a special activity, this discernment, but it’s a way of being, a way of living, a way of interacting in general.

Paul:

Exactly. How do we hear God? One way we hear God is through people. When we listen to people. And I think the rebuked that I had was God speaking to me. How do we hear God? when we read our Bible and when we listen to people we want to see whether what the people are saying aligns with what Scripture is saying then we get a reinforced communication from God. So when we get experiences along the way and then we try to think about what Scriptures are saying, we hear God. So God reveals and speaks to us in multiple ways, and we all try to see that this is a communication. So even in informal conversations we can hear God through people.

Jo:

I was very struck, just circling back a bit, what you said about slowing down and that actually maybe we’re processing things so fast or we’re when we’re listening to someone or we’re reading the Bible, we’re thinking about what we want to see happen beyond that, rather than really absorbing what it is that God or other people are saying in the moment. How have you developed this habit of slowing down as you interact with God and as you interact with people?

Paul:

Jo, they say sometimes that disappointments are blessings. I read the Bible in English as a second language for me. I can read faster than I do and I have to stumble and think about certain words more. That, in a sense, has tended to be a blessing because when I stumble on a word and I try to reflect and think about what it means, it helps me to think a little bit deeper and not just the word, but the context of what the word is saying. But also, intentionally, I have discovered that in many occasions I have given spontaneous answers to people. And then when I sat back, I thought I could have done a better job of giving a better answer if I had talked a little slower. And that makes me to hold back and pause a little bit and think about what I need to say than just give a spontaneous answer, even if I knew it.

So I think about what are the repercussions, what are the ramifications of all that I’m going to say? And how should I say it? These days, we talk about emotional intelligence. We talk about contextual intelligence. And for somebody like me who interacts in a multicultural environment, I always think about, yeah, this is my worldview, this is my context. Does what I’m going to say come across with the same kind of meaning in that other context? And without necessarily claiming contextual intelligence or emotional intelligence, just the thought of it helps me to slow down so that when I give my answer, it shouldn’t convey strangely a different meaning, or it shouldn’t come across as offensive. First of all, what guides me is I like to come across as politely as I can. And I read something from a book, where somebody says, “Disagree, but don’t make yourself disagreeable.” And that has been a guide to me. I always try to think, am I going to make myself disagreeable? And just the thought of that helps me to slow down and to reflect on what I need to say.

Jo:

Very wise. Time has rushed past, but before we finish, I’d like to ask you one last question. What advice would you give to a group of people that is about to go through a discernment process? What, out of all the principles that you’ve already talked about, would you feel applies to a group rather than an individual?

Paul:

From my experience, I’ve discovered that there is a lot we tap from informal conversations, sometimes done from formal conversations. And if I sit around a discernment table on a topic, I’ll listen at the laughter, I’ll listen to the jokes. I’ll listen at some of the facial communications. Often the topic is framed and people come with framed ideas and those framed ideas people want to communicate in very formal ways. But also do listen to what comes across informally in the form of jokes, in the form of laughter, in communications. I mean, that contributes to the richness. And people have a way of communicating their ideas more informally and in the form of jokes than formally. I think I’ve had experience of that.

Jo:

So it’s more listening between the lines?

Paul:

Absolutely.

Hannes:

Wow, that’s a lot to think about. Thanks again to Paul Kimbi for his wisdom and insight on this topic of discernment. I’m always impressed and inspired by the depth of what Paul shares. It may sound basic at first, but living out these truths is much less obvious.

Jo:

Yeah, there is much we can learn. Organisational discernment does have its similarities with personal discernment, but there are other factors to consider. Paul has touched on some of those and in the next few episodes we’ll hear about more.

Hannes:

Thanks for listening. If you would like to continue the conversation with us, you can email us at info@wycliffe.net. We’ll see you next time.

Announcer:

In the Company of Travellers is a podcast of the Wycliffe Global Alliance. If you have questions or comments, we would love to hear from you. Please email us at info@wycliffe.net. And you can find much more about the Alliance, including news, reflection, partnership opportunities, and much more at wycliffe.net.