In the Company of Travellers – Season 2, Episode 7 Transcript

Season 2, Episode 7, Swapna Alexander

Hannes Wiesmann: Welcome again to In the Company of Travelers, a podcast from the Wycliffe Global Alliance. I am Hannes Wiesmann and with me is Jo Johnson.

Jo Johnson: Hi Hannes. Hi everyone. As we continue to explore the idea of organizational Christlikeness, today we have another in a series of conversations about discernment.

Hannes Wiesmann: And for this episode, we have a conversation with Swapna Alexander who serves as the global translation consultant coordinator for Faith Comes By Hearing. Swapna has much to say about discernment both from an organizational and personal level. She and her husband made a strategic decision to leave their native India and move to the US and Swapna talks about why they did such a brave and risky thing and how they came to such a big decision. So without further ado, here is our conversation with Swapna Alexander. Welcome Swapna. It is very nice to see you and thank you so much for giving of your time to talk with you about discernment.

Swapna Alexander: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Hannes Wiesmann: Swapna, you are the global translation consultant coordinator of Faith Comes By Hearing which is an Alliance organization that is deeply involved in oral Bible translation which is also your specific responsibility. And before that you worked with Wycliffe India and were involved with your husband in a translation program. And with us as always is my co-host, Jo. Welcome to you too.

Jo Johnson: Thanks Hannes. Good to be here. Swapna, could you tell us about an experience in your life where discernment played an important role?

Swapna Alexander: That is a great question. So for me discernment is something that we practice every day, every moment of our Christian walk. And discernment is something that goes beyond choosing what is good for me now or what is bad. That’s the obvious. But going beyond good and bad and choosing what is God’s will for me at this point in history that happened a few years ago. I would say one of the examples I can give is we had completed the New Testament translation project we were working with. And then had moved into—I moved into training teams in India. And at one juncture my husband wanted to move from Wycliffe India to another position because he felt the Lord telling him that it is time to move on. So that is where discernment came into play because being with Wycliffe and translating was all that I knew. And now we were thinking of moving halfway across the world with two teenagers and it was a risk but also at the same time it was also a time we had to listen to God’s will and for me specifically as a wife trying to be in tune with what the Lord is telling my husband to do. So I would say that was probably the time in my life where we I had to use my dependence on God and the skill for discernment that he has entrusted each one of us with to make that decision to move. Eventually we see that it was a good decision though at that time it was not an easy decision but moving here I am able to work more with oral preference people and I am enjoying that.

Hannes Wiesmann: Here of course is Albuquerque for you now. So the United States. I can understand that this was quite a decision to make. You mentioned it was risky. So I’m curious what practices did you—maybe both of you, you and your husband—do to help you in making that decision or maybe a thought that guided your decision or what was in the air when you made that decision?

Swapna Alexander: So for my husband he was very sure this is what the Lord is leading him to do. So he said he heard it very clearly the first time and then he heard it again a second time that confirmed his call. And when he put that across to me he said the reason he felt he should move on is because our previous organization Alex was the CEO and I was the director for training—both leadership positions—and he had a free tenure like he could be the CEO for any number of years. And he said he didn’t have many fires to put out. It was going well and that’s when the Lord told him you need to move on. And Alex was telling me that see if we stayed here we are going to stagnate this organization and we stayed here indefinitely these young people will not come into leadership position. And he mentioned a couple of names and I’m like yeah that is absolutely right we could stay here for like the next 20 years and Wycliffe India will be like the way it is now. It has to grow and God is clearly showing us that there are so many people with leadership potential in the organization. So that resonated very well with me. And then of course on the funny side I told him also you know I go to the word of God for every decision that I make and the last time I looked up the Bible God did not speak to Sarah. He spoke to Abraham that he’s supposed to leave his country and move. But I don’t see a special vision that Sarah had. So if you are sure that this is what the Lord is telling you, I’m going to move with you. But just be sure that this is what the Lord wants you to do. So kind of, you know…

Hannes Wiesmann: That’s pretty courageous to have enough trust in your husband that he’s heard from God. Well done for being brave. That’s a big decision. You talked at the very beginning about it being a daily practice. Do you feel that any of the things you do to practice discernment daily played into being able to make this big decision so confidently?

Swapna Alexander: Oh yeah, absolutely. Sure. First of all, it is trust in the Lord because even when I moved into ministry, it was not an easy decision. You know coming from the family that I come from this was something nobody imagined that anybody would do. Though they were a supporting family. My parents supported missionaries but never in their wildest dreams they thought that one of their kids would become a missionary. So from then on God was faithful in leading me and directing me in all my steps. So absolute trust that he has only good things in store for me and it is for his glory—maybe not for my personal good but if things work out for God’s glory I know that that is good for me. So that trust in God and then the word of God in this ministry because we all value God’s word and the direction it gives in our lives. So even in this moments just knowing that we are also taking this path making sure that God’s word is accessible to people in a format that they understand. So moving from a text world into orality world made sense because of the oral communicators in the world.

Hannes Wiesmann: You gave us a very elaborate description of what you understand under discernment. I don’t know if you have it in front of you or parts of it still in your mind. Is there anything you would like to highlight from your understanding what discernment is?

Swapna Alexander: Oh yeah, absolutely. So for me when we think about discernment, see it is not about the obvious. You know, we are very easily able to distinguish between what is correct and what is not correct and what is good and what is bad. But for me, discernment goes beyond that in recognizing, distinguishing what is an opportunity, what is a distraction, what is fear and what is caution and urgency and importance. So it means that we listen to God and his word deeply. And it is very important to me that I discern that see a lot of good things come in your life that is when we need discernment when there are a lot of good things on your plate to choose you know which is a good opportunity for me at this time. Even good things can be a distraction. So that is where discernment comes into play. And when bad things are there, we also need to exercise discernment thinking, oh, is that my fear, my personal fear that is keeping me away from that or is it caution? Do I exercise caution now or do I exercise fear? So I want to move away from fear to the realm of caution so that we are embracing it but with a pinch of caution. And in one of the passages that has helped me so much during these days especially with I’m praying for discernment considering technology these days with artificial intelligence and its play in Bible translation world. The passage that has helped me navigate that is the passage in Joshua 3 when they are there and they are going to cross River Jordan. And that’s a beautiful passage where Joshua gives very clear instructions to the people. The instructions come from the Lord that the ark of the covenant is moving ahead and the people are required to walk keep a distance between the ark and themselves. And I found it extremely fascinating. You know when God gives these detailed instructions it captures my attention. I’m like why this specific distance? It’s kind of a kilometer or more than a kilometer. So I go and it is clear in the instructions itself that that is because everyone can see where the ark is moving. So if you crowd around the ark, it’s only those who are near it can see it and the rest of these people probably in millions cannot see that. And if you are too far away from it, nobody sees where the ark is moving. So for me, it is very important that we see God moving the direction that God is taking and that we are not trying to get in front of the ark and direct God’s path. Nor are we trying to be so far removed from the ark that we totally miss where God is directing us to go. So that has been something that has been in my heart and reminding myself that I am keeping my eyes on what God is doing prayerfully through his word that I understand that I am keeping that distance so that my eyes are focused on what God is doing.

Hannes Wiesmann: As you apply this to artificial intelligence, how does this helpful image which I really like—how does that apply to artificial intelligence?

Swapna Alexander: You know that is a good point because that has been what I’m dealing with in my work. I meet with people who are super enthusiastic about what AI can do. Oh, AI is going to transform things and probably get God’s word out in a matter of days maybe. I don’t know. And on the other hand, we do have people saying that no technology AI is demonic. It doesn’t have a soul. Of course, it doesn’t have a soul and it cannot do God’s work without a human we who are made in the image of God. So for me how this thought helps me is that to step back a little bit from what is happening and see where is this taking us. You know when people talk about oh undoing of Babel I’m like no that’s something God did and we are never commanded to undo that. That’s something God decided in his wisdom. You know what we commanded to is work through that situation that God has created in this world which is making us all multilingual, multicultural—that was in God’s plan. So how is AI going to help us do that? So not using AI is bad because I am absolutely sure that the kingdom of darkness is already using that for dark purposes and us as Christians are the ones who can use technology in a godly way to accelerate some of the things that we are doing. So this is helping me whether to see is there a human being in the process. And I personally believe that the moment when God’s spirit interacts with translators and reveals how his word is going to be translated including the phrasing, the choice of words, the vocabulary—is precious and we don’t want to get rid of that. We want that interaction with God’s word happening with the translators. So that is where for me personally it is important that I step back a little bit and see whether that is happening or are we just going to give this AI drafts to teams and say that oh this is good to go you just make minor edits.

Jo Johnson: I love the idea that you talked about earlier of discernment not just being opposites—so, good or bad, fear or caution—but it can be good and good. I’d love to explore a little bit more when you’re faced with two good choices, how you work out which way to go.

Swapna Alexander: Yes, absolutely. So, for me, discerning between good and bad or right or wrong, it’s mostly common sense which most people have. But discernment is beyond that. In our everyday lives, we are constantly having to make decisions between good things that come. Especially as people who are very busy. A lot of opportunities come our way. There are things that we have to do. A lot of good things, all very good things—a lot of good meetings to attend, lot of good translation work to be done, lot of good projects to be started. So there is no end to good things that we can do in our limited time and space. But that is where we need to be discerning—is my involvement going to make God’s glory shine brighter or is my involvement not that significant or can this be done by somebody else? Maybe they would do a better job than me. So all these things, good things that come my way is when I have to use my discernment more and more. For bad things, if you have already decided those are bad, you’re not going to think much about it. But it is these good things that come your way and you want to do everything because you want to serve God well. And it is very easy to even take distractions to be opportunities if we are not careful.

Jo Johnson: I really love that concept of asking yourself is God going to be more glorified if I do this? Is this something that will bring glory to God? That makes my heart excited. So, I think that’s going to be something I take away from this conversation. And another thought that has come to me is one of the choices we often have to make in this crazy busy life at least in Western culture is between urgent things and important things. I wonder if you have any wisdom to share on that issue because it’s something that I often struggle with.

Swapna Alexander: We all struggle with that, Jo. So, like I said, good things come your way and then the distinction between urgent and important. That is very true. A lot of times in the translation world and I do not want this to come across as me criticizing some of the goals we have set for ourselves, but a lot of times we are forced into things that we feel are urgent and has to be done right now. You know, even trying to get ourselves in front of the ark. That is where that whole thought helps me. You know, and we are almost trying to twist God’s arm and say that God did this is something very good. We need to do it right now where as God may be telling us, oh, this is a great thing, but maybe it can wait. It can wait a few days or it can wait a couple of months. So, just discerning whether it is absolutely urgent. Oh, that’s a struggle, Jo, every single day. But you need to look at the big picture again and see that is this urgency causing harm cause a lot of times urgency is not good because it gives us very little time to think and make informed decisions. So if we are pushed into things where we have to do things on the fly and not give much thought to it, I would say no because that urgency is not good. Me doing that is probably going to harm the situation more than enrich the situation. Those are the times when if I feel pushed I’m like no I’m not ready. This is this is urgent in your eyes but I don’t think this urgency is helping the situation.

Hannes Wiesmann: I like that image of getting in front of the ark. That’s a really useful question to ask myself. Am I getting ahead of God in his leading? I wonder how much the factor time is—actually seems to be very important in discernment. The speed of making a decision is one way how time plays a role it seems. But also yeah just as I mentioned Swapna the urgency factor. So it has to be done now. So going slow at times could actually be a helpful practice to make good decisions.

Swapna Alexander: Yes, I agree. It is sometimes it is very important that we pause and seek God’s discernment. You know, help me to discern whether this is good or is it just something that is to be done because we don’t have time to do it. And a lot of times I feel that when we set a goal—and I’m not against setting goals—when we set a goal and we see that we can not move in the same pace or use the same systems that we have in place to achieve the goal is when we are forced to look at the systems we have put in and say that oh is it time to change the systems we have in place. For example if we need the translation completed earlier than it would be if we followed the systems we have in place. That is a good thing in my opinion because if you are able to give God’s word faster than you are able to give it now. It is a good thing but that is also where I need to discern is it the systems or how do I improve the systems so that I don’t make decisions in a haste and say that okay today onwards we are not going to do this step in quality assurance. Okay you don’t have to do a community review or you don’t have to get the approval of the church for this translation because oh, bringing all those people together is not working well for your project. That is where I need to realize that you know take a moment to pause and look at the situation and work with the team to see how we can do that better faster but without compromising so that we are not making hasty decisions that’s harmful.

Hannes Wiesmann: When you talked earlier about decisions and your current situation the thought or the question crossed my mind—the two of you, you and your husband, you are the only Indians in your organization, I suppose, in Faith Comes By Hearing who work in the headquarters in Albuquerque. How do you experience that you being culturally different or coming from a different background? How do you experience your way of approaching discernment is different than what you experience in your context currently in the US? And this is less about exploring the Albuquerque or US culture, but I’m just curious how much is culture a factor how we approach discernment and you being one currently living in a cross-cultural context living and working, you may have a better sensitivity of how how this may actually be a factor.

Swapna Alexander: It is very true. Your culture plays into how you make choices. That brings into question like you know how did you discern this is what we have to do. So at Faith Comes By Hearing, yeah, Alex and I are cross-cultural workers here in this building. But we do have people from other cultures. We do have people from other parts of the world working. And the very thing that is making us work with Faith Comes By Hearing is the worldview held by our president Jerry Jackson. He is an amazing Christian and for him it is important that everyone listen to one another. And during our morning meetings so we do have FCBH people working outside of Albuquerque in a lot of countries in the world. So we all come together for a daily meeting like three times a week and if it is going to be a decision he makes it a point that the whole ministry listens to the international staff. So he might call out from people and say what do you think about this? So that has brought in a culture within Faith Comes By Hearing where we all listen to one another. It is never like one person talking about things and we are definitely encouraged to voice our opinion and how we see things differently. So a lot of times coming back to your question it is interesting that even though decisions tend to be made in Western culture. Those decisions are to be implemented in the rest of the world. This is a paradox. We have to live with this because of the way agencies are situated and how leadership is more in the West though it is coming to rests of the world and especially in Wycliffe Global Alliance. It is so beautiful to see that it is not very centralized and it is polycentric which is a wonderful concept. But for Faith Comes By Hearing at least we have the decision making here but those decisions are I would say most of the time made with people on the ground involved in those decision-making and I can very clearly see the difference in how—like you said I don’t want to go West and non-West—but how cultures are different for me coming from a culture where the good of your community is the right thing to do even though I may disagree with it but if it is good for my family that’s what we would do even if I really do personally don’t like the decision. Or even in villages when we used to live in the village for a project it was a village council and they would sit together and talk about it. There would be differences of opinions but ultimately the village is like okay this is going to help us even if you don’t like it this is going to help us and then everyone joins in that decision and that’s for the better of the community of the whole village. Whereas when we move to other places in the world it is like what suits me better is what is good for me whereas I am not very concerned what happens to the community if this is what is good for me this is what I will do. So I’m not saying one is better than the other—probably somewhere in the middle is better—but this actually affects our discernment when we make decisions in everyday lives.

Hannes Wiesmann: So can you think of a time where the input from other parts of the world have altered or modified a decision that has been made or is nearly made in the central office? Did those opinions inform the decisions that are being made?

Swapna Alexander: I can give you a generalized example because I don’t want to name people name. So, so this has to probably do with how cultures work. So, at Faith Comes By Hearing we would like to think get things done systematically and have everything in place before we start a project. But in one part of the world that is not how things work and we had to learn that we need to adjust ourselves so that we are not keeping that partner waiting and we provide them everything to start a project as soon as we can. Initially it was hurting people here in the building when we were trying to listen to the field. This is where this conversations helped. So eventually we said okay it is a lot of work for somebody here in the building to get the project ready because we use a software called Render and there is a quite a bit of production that goes into getting Render ready to be started or ready to be used in the field. So this is one place where even though we would take not a very long time we would take some stipulated time to begin a project because this particular country found it—you know, they needed it sooner. So they were dictating kind of, you know, we want to start it on Monday. So now we are in a sweet spot where we say that okay it won’t take as long as you are not comfortable with but it may not be as fast as you would want it to be. But it’s amazing how God has worked in this particular country and this was one of the countries which topped the list of Bible translation needs which is now fallen off—like, you know, it’s like oh it’s almost done there. But that’s also because the people they’re like you know they caught the vision for oral Bible translation and there they like we are moving ahead with this and in like 3 years or 4 years they are like getting done almost. So that is where I think listening to the community and working with them helped in this process. Yeah.

Hannes Wiesmann: Well Swapna this was very interesting. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I wonder if you have any last comment on discernment that you would like to leave with our listeners—something that’s important to you as you think about the topic.

Swapna Alexander: Oh, thank you Hannes and Jo for having me. It was a wonderful chatting with you. And for me, the most important thing that I would like to communicate to our listeners is that we exercise discernment every day in our lives, but to trust God and to make sure that we are in his perfect and pleasing will when we do things because like I said as ministers in God’s kingdom we are always, always, always faced with a lot of good things to do—a lot of good things. So as they say, good is the enemy of the best. So for us it is very important that good things that come our way are not distractions but they are opportunities in God’s kingdom.

Hannes Wiesmann: Thank you so much, Swapna. I want to tag on something. Maybe we’ll cut—we’ll put it back in. I want to double click on something that you said, Swapna, but maybe it won’t fit. You were very kind in comparing—you know, you said from your culture, you have the question, what is good for the community? Western cultures in general, they think more about what is good for me. You were kind to say that both has its values and it’s somewhere in the middle. But I actually wonder if the biblical way is more the Indian way than the Western way. Why?

Swapna Alexander: Okay. So, you know, we do want that what we decide on is good for the community. I still hold on to that. You know, I—especially for my family—I want to make sure that decisions that are made are good for our family as a whole and I am not making decision that would hamper somebody else’s progress or even disturb their peace. But at the same time why I said both—it’s probably not at both ends of the spectrum that is what I meant as bad. Because we do see in Indian context where people are not able to express themselves or even move ahead in life because they put others first. Which I agree we have to put others first but also make you in a very uncomfortable situation. For example, like my family was very kind to me when I decided to be a missionary. They were very kind to me. They were not happy. They were fearful of what would my future be like. But I have seen so many people who have heard from God and they feel this urge to be in full-time missions but have not been able to do that because there is no way their family would let them be a missionary. So in that case this person is living in the space of wanting to do something but cannot do. So they don’t find peace ultimately—and some people do because God is good always and provides them with opportunity and gives them a sense of fulfillment. But I know people who have told me over and over again, you know, I wanted to be a full-time missionary but it didn’t work because others around me wouldn’t let me be missionary. So that is where I said you know both extremes—extremes are never good.

Hannes Wiesmann: I just think as a corrective for us Westerners—and maybe Swiss in particular, I don’t know—but to have a bit more of the good of the community as a criterion would certainly be very, very well.

Jo Johnson: Yeah, I think even in the UK I quite often hear what’s God’s best for me, but I don’t always hear what’s God’s best for us. And sometimes that means putting my preferences to one side, but sometimes it doesn’t. So…

Swapna Alexander: So but when we work in an organization like one of the Wycliffe Alliance organization, we see that put into practice every time. I’m sure at the Alliance leadership also this comes into play practically though we don’t think about it because when you as a leadership team makes decisions you’re looking at the good of the Alliance and probably not looking at what Hannes is best for the agency though he could influence. So I am sure that subconsciously maybe we do that when we are working in an agency but it just depends on the varying degrees of how it comes through. You know, if it is a completely top-down agency, it is different from something like a member-driven or a board-driven agency.

Hannes Wiesmann: Our thanks again to Swapna Alexander of Faith Comes By Hearing for such an inspiring conversation.

Jo Johnson: Yeah, what a story of bravery for the sake of the kingdom. Hannes, you and I have both lived cross-culturally with our families and can attest to not only the scariness of those decisions, but also the joy and peace in following God’s leading to an unfamiliar place.

Hannes Wiesmann: And I was struck by their selflessness for what they believed was the good of their former organization, Wycliffe India, that they were concerned the organization could stagnate if they stayed in leadership too long. That’s brave—or I should say brave and very humble.

Jo Johnson: If you have comments or questions about these conversations about discernment or if you know of someone we should be talking with, we’d love to hear from you. Please email us at info@wycliffe.net. That’s all for now. Travel well, Hannes.

Hannes Wiesmann: Thanks, Jo. And travel well, everyone. Until we meet again in the next episode.