In the Company of Travelers. Season 1, Episode 4: Christlikeness in Relationships with Colleagues

Here is the interview transcription of Season 1, Episode 4. Guests: Raquel Villela, Peter Wilburg. Interviewer: Jo Johnson.

Jo Johnson: Welcome. With me today to discuss becoming more Christlike in our relationship with colleagues is Peter Wilberg, who’s currently director for Wycliffe Switzerland, but has worked in several different mission contexts and Raquel Villela who currently serves in the Brazilian Transcultural Mission Association as a coordinator of mission intercession and a coordinator of the ProBible Translation Alliance. Thank you so much for joining me. So, Raquel, what motivates you to seek Christlikeness in your leadership?

Raquel Villela: The results. This is the most important thing. I have always tried to do things like Jesus, but never with the intensity that I see and I practice it today with my brothers and sisters in the Wycliffe Global Alliance in the model of mesas or round tables I guess we say in English. It’s because the speed and quality of everything is impressive when our dynamics are Christ likeness.

Jo: Wow, I’d not actually thought about that as a motivating factor, that’s very interesting. Peter, what motivates you to see Christ likeness in your leadership?

Peter Wilberg: I think I’m motivated for Christlikeness, you know, if I’m a leader or not, I don’t care. I just want to be more like Jesus. But I think what has motivated me a lot is that that’s the ultimate, I mean Paul says, “Imitate me as I imitate Christ.” And so I think three big things I think I can highlight. The one is just examples of people or role models you might say who I’ve encountered that through their presence or their ways or their teachings and often a combination of those things. It’s never just a teaching, “demonstrate Christ”. And also the a strong thing God has really put it in my heart, in my life is that this the the incarnation of the Word, the power of the incarnation of the Word of God like in John 1, “the Word became flesh and moved into the neighborhood”, you know, and that’s still God’s strategy. There’s still, you know, lots of, as it was with Jesus was like they were having fights about the law and about the prophets and what does it mean and then he came and showed them, you know, this is what it’s like you know not just through his teachings but through his whole being. One scripture that’s really been, well a number of scriptures, but a very core one that’s been with me as well is through Ephesians 3 for instance where it speaks about the formation of Christ in us and being rooted and grounded in his love and that this is, yeah, that’s actually a prayer that Paul prays for Christians: “So let Christ be formed in your heart.” So that’s a being more like Christ. So it’s for me, this is not just about what we do but about who we become in Christ and that’s what the world needs more not just more good projects.

Jo: So what helps you sustain that motivation maybe when things get a bit difficult?

Peter: I think the fact that I’m in community with people that have this as part of our common goal to live more like Jesus in my church. That’s very strong. And also doing some spiritual disciplines or spiritual rhythms or activity together that I’m not just it’s not just me doing it. I’m a super dedicated person and disciplined etc. But in the end you can never be a Christian on your own.

Jo: So true. Absolutely. So Raquel, again, how do you navigate the difference between being someone’s spiritual encourager and just needing to help them to get their job done?

Raquel: This is a daily challenge. A critical aspect I think is that in a Christian organisation, collective needs deserve to have a priority. Then my specific task may not be the most urgent for the organisation at that moment. If it is, others must help me. But pausing what I’m doing to help someone else, thinking about the broader benefit of the team is an important way of being like Christ. Looking at the organisation from the perspective of Christlike automatically leads us to people instead of things or plans or needs. Then we see a person. It’s a way to do like Christ and we know we must look to seek first God and his kingdom and his righteousness. All the rest of things belongs to Christ to God. I used to say the things in the society, ends justify the means,but as a Christians we can’t say this way for us just we need to think about means because the results never belong to us.

Jo: So the priorities I have are never just for me, they’re for everyone.

Raquel: Yes, the priority must be the body of Christ in the case of our organisation, our group, the small part of body of Christ. I think this is the most important than my task, my plan, my needs.

Jo: I find that so interesting because that is not a Western mindset. In the West, it’s about me getting my work and the best results from someone else. Very often, we don’t look at what are the collective goals. 

Peter: It’s a fine line that needs to be clear. Jesus wasn’t running an organisation. He was walking with a bunch of guys daily living with them. It was a whole different context than running an organisation with budgets and strategic plans and all that kind of stuff, which is also good and necessary. So, so it’s helpful for me to know in an organisation and sometimes there are real tensions with this, but I’m not not Jesus. I’m not the person’s pastor. Even though I care for them, I’m the director. So, this is my role and this is what I need to do. So, I need to do that  as Christlike as I can and as a servant leader. But even knowing that sometimes people’s definition of what a servant leader is or the picture they have in their mind of what does a servant leader has to do is not necessarily what they need or who I am, you know, and many times you will experience things like you you’re working in behind the scenes that nobody sees it. Some people might defer, define servant leadership, oh, he helps washing the dishes. But what about all the times that you’re having sleepless nights because you’re worrying about things that nobody else worries about or they think, oh, someone else should do it. So those are some of the dynamics there. So it’s I think it’s helpful to have those expectations clear for people to know and knowing what are the desires and needs of your office community. So for instance, if someone is having a hard time, if you know that it’s not necessarily always like knowing they have a need does not necessarily mean that I have to serve that need and maybe they don’t even want that. One might experience in certain cases someone saying you know just leave me alone to do my job. Okay.

Jo: Yeah.

Peter: And they are in a church and they have it’s good to know they have a supportive environment. They have the member care in that sense, to take care of them and they don’t necessarily want to have the director helping with that, you know, so that so there’s a boundary and that’s fine. I think it’s also an honourable thing to let people sometimes just do their job and some really want that’s interesting. Some people really want a sense of community and they really resonate with that and they want that relational aspect and some people just really don’t. So knowing your team well I guess helps a lot and the key thing is two things I’ll say as well is one thing is prayer. Basically pray for the people. If you pray for people, right, you have a whole different, there’s a whole different dynamic that opens up and possibilities and what God does. It’s just and if you don’t it’s just, it’s just not as cool. It doesn’t work as well. So living a life of prayer, carrying the people in your heart that is regardless if they want it or not, you can still pray for them, I mean, and the results are up to God. The last thing I would just say, it’s important to have a clear vision and you know, as that’s communicated. So, everybody owns that vision together, develops the vision together, otherwise it’s a division.

Jo: I find it interesting that idea that some people actually don’t want us to support them. And I would think I’m not obviously not a director of an organisation, but that I would think that if I was, there would be lots of people with skills that I don’t have. I couldn’t go in and do the IT well. I wouldn’t know how to advise them in that situation. So, it’s having a context of support.

Peter: And knowing that like as Raquel was speaking saying about the body, a toe and a finger and a nose and arm don’t have the same function. So yes, helping people get what they need, it doesn’t mean they all have to get all of it from me.

Jo: Which is a lovely segue to the next question. Why is it important that we share the same vision and motivation in our organisations or teams? What are some ways that you have sought to bring unity of vision and motivation?

Raquel: Of course, I’ve shared the vision and motivation are one of the foundation for unity. Something that is very precious. How do we do it in the round tables model? Every meeting begins with prayer and submission to God with sincere willingness to build something together from something we want to do together. We ask more and more questions, consider many possibilities and give everyone, without exception the opportunity to express themselves. It’s a way of recognising the dignity of each one and benefitting from a collective wisdom. We get all opinions identified together with which are the priorities for everyone and then detail them. That’s the way we do, we see that the result is always better than what any of us could produce individually. And another thing it’s that this way to work produces friendship and we know how important is to create confidence and possibility to do something together. And returning to the issue of unity, everyone feels responsible for the defined goals and for the way to achieve them. Everyone has an equal interest in making it work and they commit to it. They help each other as friends, too.

Jo: That’s really beautiful. And it strikes me that it requires the leader to be humble as well which is not always easy although definitely was something that Christ was, is.

Peter: It’s important for people to clarify and own the vision together and I think the process that Raquel was sharing about,that’s how to do it you know have people around a table talking with each other I think of some. I listened to a talk of a Benedictine monk once and they sit in their different monasteries, it’s that we kind of have this picture of like the abbot is kind of the boss and he tells everybody what to do. But actually that’s not the way it works at all. They sit around a table and they talk things out until they, and they have lots of I mean they have a vow of stability living together for the rest of their lives, so they have time to work things through. And I think that time to work things through is a very big key. And allowing that time realising that sometimes you probably won’t be in unity with everybody and some people want to be contributors to the table if it’s only on their terms and then it just becomes harder but I think once you have clarified the vision it’s very important to keep reminding people about the vision and again and again because in the Bible and you know just human nature we are notoriously great at forgetting. People, people just I mean if you you sit there and then after a month you’ve not highlighted you know the reason we’re here and blah blah blah people’s kind of just kind of automatically kind of get confused; oh I don’t know my purpose whatever emotions up and down. We just have to keep reminding people, remember what God has done, remember what our vision is, remember who you are in the Lord, all these things and it’s all kind of connected. But one thing I can say is that it’s also good to know our limitations. I know for me personally, I think I’m not very good at motivating people to get things done that they don’t really want to do. So, so try to I try to focus my efforts on the ones who are motivated and they usually have a disproportionate effect on the rest. And so it’s otherwise it saves me wasting a lot of energy to get people on board who don’t really want to be on board with certain things.

Jo: So when you sense that there is some disunity in the room, what’s your first step? Is it to listen? Is it to pray? Is it to wait or do you come straight out and confront it?

Peter: I don’t instantly confront unless it’s very very obvious that someone is just wrong. But first of all, I need to, if we talk about humility and face the fact that maybe I might be wrong. It’s very possible. So I could learn something from this and from other person’s perspective on it. And I think that’s the way to start. But then also I think as Raquel also said to this is about the organisation’s goals. It’s about you know the communal interest, not just the personal interest of somebody. So someone might have an issue that needs to be dealt with that’s not necessarily important for this agenda point now. And so it’s tricky to discern that you know so and some of these things just take time and once again if we are praying for people then then then it’s different the effect is different and knowing that sometimes someone else can deal with this better than I can so it’s I find it also really helpful with the community aspect it’s not all dependent on me we own this together as a team, as an organisation and so we also then decide together what is the way that we want to go forward. So it’s not all up to me either.

Jo: So in some ways a little bit like what Raquel was saying that you have everyone give everyone an equal voice and allow everyone to talk.

Peter: Yeah. Some people take the the opportunity to talk and to share their honest opinion way too seriously. They just they start to you know, I don’t know, throw things on the table that’s not helpful for everybody else or it goes too long. Every situation is different.

Jo: Changing direction a little bit. Can you recall a time, Raquel, when a team you were part of supported one another through a challenge? How did you experience encouragement together?

Raquel: We always try to start from a point that unites us, we are always difficult and different opinions things like this but something must unite us, it’s like a third space that here is in relation to content and intellectual third space as a Christian organisation we find the third space in the Word of God. So we must go to the Word, reading and reflecting on a passage from the Bible is always a good start especially when the Scripture is speaking of something that can be applied to our reality. Another way is to talk about points of affinity but it is same result and value the positive points before addressing the points that are causing difficulties, the conflicts sometimes.

Peter: Yeah, we had a very very destructive thing that happened once in a previous organisation I was working in. It was basically a family very suddenly fell apart completely because the father had been in adultery and he left his wife and two beautiful children just behind. And we were living in community together and this was just a huge blow on our community, you know, because nobody had expected this or maybe one or two people thought well not sure but you can never fully just have revelation about these things and then boom it hit us. It was really helpful that there was very wise discerning spiritual father type person there at that moment, right at that moment, to be there for the community and for this family. So we, the questions were like, how do we support this family? Just also, you know, whatever they need emotionally, financially, just trying to kind of plug wounds as good as you can and also to manage emotions because some people were just really really angry. But what’s one thing that this spiritual father person helped us with is to pray from a position of vulnerability, not from a position of self-righteous anger. So basically, knowing that if he wasn’t there, it would have been so much different. But he was basically saying that, you know, you have to pray for the situation, for these people, for this family, knowing that it could have happened to you. And in saying in a super gracious way, you know, just dismantling a lot of that anger that was growing and just knowing that I am a sinner, you know, and I pray as a sinner. Otherwise, you can start using your prayers as the wrong kind of weapon, you know. So, it needed careful guidance and discernment. So, I thank God, you know, we don’t have many of these situations to deal with, but when they do come, it’s helpful to have someone that’s a whole lot wiser than the most of us around.

Jo: Yeah. It’s the kindness of God that that person was there for that moment.

Peter: Yeah. Very much so. One of the pastors in our church, she speaks about if there’s a problem, not to be like a megaphone, but to be like a vacuum cleaner rather, because people will come and come and share problems with you sometimes, and that’s fine. And to let the problem end in the room as much as possible, you know, it’s not always possible, but at least not to go and include people that don’t need to be included, you know, posting on social media or whatever. Rather come and bring it into the community. Let’s try and solve this together. 

Jo: Can you share some practices or habits that help a team that you’re part of grow in discerning God’s will together,especially when things are complicated or chaotic? How do you hear from God together?

Raquel: I’m always thinking about our Mesa model. When this model was formulated, we decided that the top of the table would represent the purpose and dream a group intends to achieve. And in the case of Bible translation tables, it involves having God and his Word as what we will be discussing. What we realised in practice was that the top of the table was more than that. It also defined our work dynamics. God must be our reference for everything we do is in the top not because just our vision because our dream because God must be there and then our processes and choices presuppose an application of biblical principles and a table with ongoing dialogue with God and with one another. Thus, a subgroup with the most experienced leaders is not at the centre but on the periphery around the other leaders. This is the peripheral team like a shepherd with taking care of the sheep or a leader who is a servant like Jesus. Yeah. We do not have ready answers for everything. We don’t begin with a definition. We put the problem because you prefer to discern together the needs and solutions around the table and where we talk among ourselves as we try to discern what God would like us to do. Discerning God’s will is our constant effort. Prayer is an important point, very important point. And when we pray together frequently, we unite these two necessary forms of relationships; with God and with our brothers and sisters. Again, we enter a kind of third space which now is spiritual.

Jo: I love that idea that discerning is a continuous process, not just something we do once and then we follow that direction. I find that very challenging.

Peter: Yeah. Just something that Raquel had said as well that to have God be our point of reference for everything that we do. And that’s really important. I don’t know if you have anything more to say about that, Raquel, because what I find is often that people have,they bring their experiences, oh from I I used to work in this place and this is my experience or they read some kind of article or they had some kind of book or some kind of opinion about something. So these kinds of things are all valid and good but it’s not that sometimes it’s as if we kind of, we rely so much on management wisdom etc that we’re that we’re not really including God in this. So what you’re saying, Raquel, is that the way you do this is really kind of lead with the Word. So there’s a scripture and we centre around that and then we how does that work?

Raquel: We usually have someone to lead us in this kind of study and we take a part of the scripture and read together, think about it and we have someone that is more prepared, that read it before and help us to look [at] every part of that situation. For example, the two sons that prodigal, which one are you? What do you think about the first son and the second son? And if you were the father, how would you look at the one son and another son? Then we needed to try to understand the things in a way that is usually more, with more details than we used to see. Then sometimes you don’t see the most important in that situation. I can see I’m not a prodigal person but I can be like the Lord that I can’t accept my brother. How can I feel in this situation? How am I acting in this situation like this? Like another one? And then we think together about this. It is easier sometimes to think as we call a project. It isn’t exactly our situation. We see situation of others how we see that situation. Then at the end we realise we are thinking about ourselves but it is easier to think and other situations especially in the Bible.

Peter: Yeah. For us just in our office life, what’s really helpful for us is we daily have this little devotional time where we read through the Bible, small portions and have some time of prayer together. So just those two basic things you know reading some Bible portion of scripture and praying together for whatever needs are there or regular needs. And there’s a lot that happens there. We’ve, for instance, once we had, it’s happened more than once actually, where there was a little misunderstanding between some people and then the Scripture of the day happened to you know hit the mark for those people about you know concerning their attitude or so on. So these little things just happen to happen but I think that it’s important to create that environment that God could use his Word to speak to us. So just that element of regularity, just something small and regular and it has that effect really. What I also experienced and to be honest it’s not so much in Switzerland or in meetings that I’ve been in with other leaders is not necessarily always part of the culture of what we do just to stop and listen to God. In another organisation I used to work with many years ago with YWAM it’s much more like that. Let’s stop and listen to the Lord. Did someone have a dream? Did someone have an impression? or a picture or it’s just a whole lot more part of the everyday culture. So I think that’s something we can probably cultivate a little bit more and in my community life that I live we do a lot of praying the psalms. If one comes together praying a liturgical little bit of scripture or a large portion whatever it’s a it has a very cool unselfing effect like you come together at a time where you don’t choose what it is it’s nothing to do with your emotions, even your rhythm of your breathing has to be in tune with people around you and that really helps to you know on a regular basis to to keep us on track with each other. So this is the simplicity of devotion together.

Raquel: As Brazilian as Latin people we have difficulty with the liturgical way of prayer and

Peter: Yeah.

Raquel: It’s done and then we have a group in South America with leaders and prayer leaders and we used to read a passage, the Bible, then we comment what’s the most important for me in this situation, what’s difficult for me to understand, what does it bring me news. It’s interesting because each one has a different perspective when we put it all together. It’s amazing. It’s amazing. Then it’s a way to hear directly from God. Not just one small part that we usually see, but we see the sum of all the people.

Peter: Yes. And often God just speaks through other people like that in unexpected ways. It doesn’t always have to be this Cornelius moment, Peter praying and seeing something come down from heaven. It often is quite subtle. And it’s kind of like this, you know, still small voice that just we have to tune into and be open to the possibility that God might speak through this other person that’s in this room. Whether I like them or not, God does. And he might just want to say something to me through them.

Jo: Love that. Well, time is nearly gone. So, let’s come to our final question. And this is when I ask you to ask the whole Alliance community a question on this topic. Something that you would like the global community to answer.

Raquel: If they could ask the same question I do every day, all of the day it’s, tell this to the God. It’s because everything I need to put it in this space. I need to give the, my preoccupation, my need, my gratitude, everything. Then I always think about, oh, I’m doing this, but I didn’t ask the Lord before. No, then all the time I’m trying to be connected with God. Then it’s a question that helps me a lot and if others could ask the same question, I think it would be good. Yes.

Peter: Wow. What a privileged moment to ask this, to be asked this. One question for me is this. The early fathers they had this teaching where they speak, they spoke about the spiritual person or the community being kind of like a city like a spiritual city, you know the spiritual Zion, you know the city coming down from heaven etc like a bride. So they spend a lot of time working on this and praying about this. And one of the things I said is that it’s important and often these cities are broken down like in Nehemiah, right? And that needs to have strong walls and a pure city inside. They didn’t just open the doors all the time. There was a need for purity and strong walls first of all. So my question would be what are we doing personally and as a community to ensure that our walls are strong and our city is pure?