In the Company of Travellers. Season 1, Episode 3: Christlikeness in Relationship with Ourselves

Here is the interview transcription of Season 1, Episode 3. Guests: Katharina Kopp, Penisimani Moli. Interviewer: Hannes Wiesmann.

Hannes Wiesmann: Today our conversation is with Penisimani Moli who is a director of Wycliffe Tonga and with Katharina Kopp who is the personnel director of Wycliffe Germany. Welcome to both of you.

Katharina Kopp: Thank you.

Penisimani Moli: Thank you.

Hannes: Today we are exploring together how we can grow in our Christlikeness in our relationship to ourselves. I guess this has a lot to do with leading ourselves and self-care. As always we want to learn together how we can do this as an organisation. Both of you have responsibility in your respective organisations now and you have experience from other organisations with which you were connected. But before we get into the topic, I would like to ask you a more personal question. What’s a recent experience or encounter that deepened your understanding of Christlikeness?

Katharina: Well, in the last couple of days, I’ve been thinking more about being Christlike, and my viewpoint about that was actually challenged by one of our board members because it was always it has always been my highest goal to be transformed into the likeness of Christ and taking him as an example. But he actually questioned that. He said we cannot be like Christ and that was something that I pondered a lot about and of course as a leader in a globally operating organisation I face many challenging situations and often they have to do with different viewpoints and there was actually one recent situation that I don’t want to specify. But it has caused me a sleepless night because I felt misunderstood and hurt. And in that same evening, I had a good conversation with a godly friend. How we are actually called to be obedient. And it was still hard for me. I had a sleepless night after that. But I realised that as a child of God, I don’t have to be in a bad mood. I can actually change that again because like those situations help me to be transformed more into the likeness of Christ. And of course, if we want to be godly and if we want to walk with God and become more like him, we have to accept those situations and we have to move on even though things are not always as we would like them to be.

Penisimani: What deepens my understanding of Christlikeness when I was called to be the director of Wycliffe Tonga mission. And I learned that Christ was saving people through me. I learned from the story when he washed the disciples’ feet. He didn’t wanted to do in public so he will be praised. He just to do it into where nobody will see it just only him. And it deepened my understanding of the calling because for so many years I have been building up a name for myself, an identity for myself and I wanted to be known by people. I wanted to be I was boasting of whatever achievement that I has. But when I was called to come here to Wycliffe and nobody in it know what Wycliffe is, not many people know it and I thought to myself “man, I will be not known by people when I come and walk with Wycliffe” and nowadays here in Tonga doing missionary works and Bible translations I’m not very famous among people. So to me coming here and working at Wycliffe I started to think of myself as like what Jesus did. Nobody had to notice it like Katharina says obedience, total obedience for his missions.

Hannes: So you built on a concrete lived experience and now touched on humility. Thinking in broader terms what would you Peni[simani] say is most prominent when you think about Christlike?

Katharina: when I did my Bible school we learned about the character of God and that’s a very, that’s a thing that in YWAM is very important like the character and the nature of God so we cannot be like God in his nature but we can be like him in his character we cannot be omniscient and omnipotent but we can be loving and I think everything starts with the love that he had also the humility starts with the love and I think also generosity and the holiness that God has and he asks us to be holy like he’s holy.

Hannes: How do you live that out as a group, as a team, as an organisation?

Penisimani: in an organisation to add on to what Katharina has shared, humility and respect are so important in running group organisations because nowadays people are fighting overr powers and who is the smartest person in the room to be the leader. So sometimes we can all be smart and we can all be powerful but if we can’t humble ourself … then nothing, nothing will be built, if each of us keep pulling one string for each person. So it’s important if we humble enough to hear what our people said and to keep respect [for] what they have to say and what they are feeling at the moment so that things will be put into plan to smooth out how the whole group or organisations are running.

Hannes: Now, it’s probably not that difficult to express respect or even to feel respect for others in the room. If everyone respects each other, it’s a little bit more of a challenge or very challenging if the others don’t have that value or idea that they want to respect the others. How do you become able to respect others when you are not respected yourself or you don’t feel respected?

Penisimani: I think here in a Tongan tradition, respect I think maybe it’s the Western side of the world that they said that respect is earned but here in Tonga you are born with it and it’s given freely. You should keep it’s like you’re born and you’re demanded by the culture, give respect to other people. You have to first respect yourself as a person. If you can’t respect yourself as a person, others will find it hard to respect you. If you, because here in Tonga, there’s this thing that we are very much like the peace people. Because even when we’re not because we here in Tonga, we have ranks, we have commoners, we have the chief and the kings. To sum it up first, have to respect yourself.

Hannes How does that resonate with you, Katharina?

Katharina: I really like the matter of how do we respect ourselves and how do we respect others? And I mean the question was how do I deal with it when I feel that others don’t respect me? And I think it’s a great idea to say well “I have to respect myself first of all and I have to keep moving and I have to keep standing firm in spite of doubts and fears” and of course if you feel that others don’t respect you it’s a hard thing to acknowledge. So sometimes it’s challenging because we have different characters. We’re just different and I think it’s good to respect that difference and also if people are more outside the box and I throw out lots of ideas and that’s good. It’s good to be different and I think that’s something we all have to learn, to look at each other and say well to celebrate each other’s differences and I think that’s something where there is a lot of growth even within myself to say well this person is that way and I’m a different way and it’s good because we need to be different different cultures, different characters, different personalities in order to build the fullness of the body of Christ.

Hannes: Do you sense there is a difference between celebrating difference with people from cultures that are obviously very different compared to celebrating the difference with people from your own culture?

Katharina: Sometimes I find it easier to celebrate other cultures, especially if there is more different cultures. Sometimes there’s a dichotomy of where you have lots of Germans or Westerners and then lots of Pacific Islanders or Samoans, Tongans. That’s a bit hard because then sometimes it’s more like an imbalance. But in general, I find the intercultural aspect often adds to it because it brings it more down to a level where you’re where you’re more talking about the basics of life and sometimes in your own culture you’re talking about minute differences and actually they’re not that important.

Penisimani: For me it’s easier to celebrate that differences between other cultures from diverse backgrounds, not within my own culture because I understand the people in my own culture, I know how things work and it’s and it will be hard for me to be judgmental over other cultures like Katharina and you I do not know your culture so I’ll give you the respect because I do not know but here in my in my own culture it’s hard to celebrate it because I know because I know it and when things goes wrong I won’t respect you because I know that that things are not supposed to be that way. That’s for me on that part about it’s easier to celebrate other cultures than my own.

Katharina: It’s true, I think that’s a great idea and that’s something I will take into the day to  look at people like they’re also from a different planet.

Penisimani: That is so true because that is what I’m practicing here at the moment because I’m a counsellor as well now. That’s what I do at the moment. Even though I’m running the Wycliffe Tonga I have this approach for counselling which is a person centered approach by Carl Rogers. It teaches you how you do not know anything about the other persons. You have to learn that you had to sit and hear this. Oftentime we give advice to people without knowing anything about them whether they telling them to go and take a walk or cool them down or take a cold shower. You have because we do not have the memo, their life memo in your hand so you know what what’s happened to them and that’s I find it amazing now at the moment here in Tonga I I learned … even though I celebrated our other cultures better but here at the moment as an individual different from me, I know I do not have all the answers. I had to take off my shoes like what God told Moses because that zone of the heart, the mind, the thoughts, that zone is only for God. God knows only the heart and the and the figure. I do not know. So I had to respect people. I had to listen to them to learn from them because I do not know anything about them.

Katharina: I really like what you’re saying, especially as I also like I have a coaching training and other things. And if I’m in a one-on-one situation with somebody, asked to coach or to counsel, I usually use that technique of asking questions more than telling people what to do. And sometimes people are maybe irritated because they want me to tell them what to do. But it’s actually helping them more to think about the questions.

Hannes: I would like to just quickly come back to the question of respect. And Peni[]simani], you said it starts with self-respect. Again, it’s difficult for us to respect others if we don’t respect ourselves. We talked about curiosity also. I wonder how does our relationship with God assist us or direct us in this regard: Respect and curiosity?

Penisimani: Well, I think it bring me back to that old saying that you only keep what you have and it brings me back to what Jesus teaches us to love God and to love your neighbours as you love yourself. I always ponder when I told or try to respect myself. I always come back to the Bible verse and I think to myself the last part is the very important part to me to to love God, to love others as you love yourself. So if I’m treating myself badly, if I do not love myself how can I love? It doesn’t mean I’m being selfish or self-centered, but somehow I had to respect myself. I had to to be kind enough to myself to love God, to love your neighbours as you love yourself. If you do not love yourself, uh… how can you love other people?

Katharina: I was actually reminded of the first encounter that God had with Adam after Adam and Eve ate from the fruit and God asked and he called because they were hiding and he called where are you Adam and I think this basic question is where are you God was curious where are you and I think that question is a very deep question.Like even when Hagar was in the desert and he said well suddenly God was there and he’s looking for us and maybe we can look at him and say, well how can I look out for others where are you this morning I just read an email from a from a colleague and he said, “Oh, we haven’t we haven’t been in contact for a while.” And I’m thinking, “Well, I have 50 people that I have to care for and we’re not always in touch”, but he asked, “Hey, are you okay? I haven’t heard from you.” And I thought that was great. And also for me to think of and I need to go through my people and think of, “Hey, how are they? Where are they?” And to look even out for the people that I work with next door because sometimes we are so involved in talking about “what do we need to do here? What do we need to do there?” And we’re not actually looking at the people, hey, how was your weekend? How are you actually doing? Where are you at in your relationship with God?

Hannes: And what I also hear you say is just as God shows interest in us, as people, we can show interest in others in a similar way. And the fact that someone, the most High, is interested in us is a huge thing.

Penisimani: … so true.

Hannesr: So, as we wrap this conversation up, I wonder how does all that we discussed, how does that translate into us as organisations? We have primarily talked about us as people, respecting us, respecting others, showing curiosity. How does that translate to us as teams, as organisations? How do we practice that?

Katharina: I think it’s basically very similar because it starts for me and then it transfers on to others. And I think the way I interact with others will also help us all to look at hey how are we actually working together? How do we as a team as an organisation move forward from here and also to know that we are actually not here just because I want you to be here. I think each and every one of us has a calling to be here. We are here because God asked us to be here and so we can, as an organisation, work together in this area of respect and curiosity.

Penisimani: How can we put that respect into our organisations and being curious enough for others and ourself? I think it comes down to, for me it’s come back to the question, how can it’s no longer me asking for respect or me being very curious about other people in the organisations. For me, it’s coming back to me as a person. How can I give respect to others in difficult situations and still be Christlike and how can I help other people? It’s no longer what can they do for me? It’s no longer what the organisation can give me, what benefits do I have from their presence? It’s more about how can I help, how can I make a difference, how can I give respect to the work and how can I organise and bring together the significant others inside organisations.

Hannes: So as we wrap this up, we realise we only scratched the surface, but we are part of a global community. So maybe you have a question that you would like to ask our global community? Something that we touched on in this conversation.

Katharina: I think we’ve talked a lot about being submissive to God. It’s not a question that in today’s world you hear a lot, but I would like to know how can we or how can you make sure that your enthusiasm for a life in submission to Christ is being kept alive. 

Hannes: Well friends, thank you so much. Is there anything else you would like us to keep on the record around the topic that we explored a little bit together?

Katharina: Well, I think the most important thing in being more Christlike is to know that, in the place where you serve, this is where God has placed you. And to just be obedient to his calling and to know that whatever whatever you do, you stay in a position where God has placed you however hard it is. This idea of I do whatever I feel like or the idea of as long as it feels good for you which is, in our day it’s very common to say well if it feels right to you then just go for it and that’s also part of the humility to stand there and say this is not okay.

Hannes: I want to double click on what you just said Katharina by asking; is there a link between what you just said on the one hand and self-respect on the other.

Katharina: I think it’s kind of a tension because I have to be who I am and who God has made me. And I think this whole matter of being Christlike is becoming more who God has made me to be. What is this person? And I’m still curious what is this person that he has trusted me with a whole life and how am I supposed to be the person that he wanted me to be and not others want me to be? But I have to be who God made me to be and not to submit to others who are trying to put you into a mold and say, “Well, this is how you have to be because this is how we see you.”

Hannes: It just made me wonder when you when you shared about the benefit it is to know that I am in the place where I’m supposed to be from God’s perspective.

Penisimani: I think it’s just landed right on my plate what you guys have been talking about. I think the first time I came here to be, they were deciding who will be the next director of Wycliffe Tonga. It was a funny day, I was … that’s the question that was being asked, nobody knows, no none of the board members knows who am I, nobody knows me. I was questioning myself. I feel disrespected,  I feel I am not welcome around this table and I feel maybe I’m in the wrong place because the previous directors and the other directors they were all people who doing hard works and been training up in the Lafa Lafa where Katharina was at. I am from a very different background. I was doing nursing and I have no idea about the work of God. I know God I go to church but to serve for God [was] not on my list but at the same moment the Wycliffe offered me the position, there were other organisations that offered me a position as well and I was inside between those two whether … if I will go there, they will … they will give me a nice position I can debate and or I’ll choose Wycliffe, a place where nobody knows me and you do not get paid and I thought to myself, like Katharina said, I think this, this what God has been calling me to do, to get me out from my comfort zone because I have no idea how to run this place, and even the family that family said that this is not from God. God gave you that position it’s good paid, you … a lot of member of my family said that I am stupid and I thought to myself also when I picked Wycliffe over the other offer to me it’s been a long time I had building myself up to make a name for myself. Katharina knows to a small country and you can get recognised easily in Tonga be building myself people know me I work a nice job and all of a sudden I’m out of the blue I won’t be recognised and somehow I feel like it’s the best time and the best position.